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    Saturday, May 27, 2006

    After reading Danny Akin's "interview" with Southeastern's Olive Press we thought of two other t-shirts designs that might be seen at the convention. We did like what Dr. Akin said about cooperation, we wished he had dealt more with the controversy with the IMB. We also liked what he said about the election of president. For further explanation of what we found interesting about Akin's interview we go to Dr. Akin:

    "Finally, there seems to be a new spirit within the convention that wishes to place a greater emphasis on our liberties in Christ than our love for others and God’s admonition to walk in holiness. There are those who do not let wisdom rule their action on things like the consumption of alcohol, who are not hesitant to attend sexually promiscuous movies or who find it acceptable to lace their language from time to time with profanity. I would have never thought these issues would be raised in Southern Baptist life, but times have changed. Some say those who oppose such activities argue from tradition and not Scripture. I strongly disagree in light of Paul’s instructions in 1 Corinthians 6:12-13; 8:13; 10:32-11:1. I also think the damage done by alcoholism, drug addiction, pornography and family abuse is a sufficient argument to avoid at all cost the things that lead to these tragedies."
    We do not see the emphasis taken off of love for others and placed on liberty. We see the emphasis being place on the scripture itself. Those who don't agree with interpretations of scripture on matters related to alcohol or the need to know culture in which we are called to minister are not a problem for the convention. We don't agree that it is a problem when someone holds to the fidelity of scripture. BTW, we cannot remember seeing any profane language on any blog or being used by anyone who might be accused of having "new spirit." Thus the two t-shirts, which do not ask a questions, but very much make a declaratory statements. I think the right the t-shirt would say "Got Scripture"

    posted by Arkansas Razorbaptist at 5/27/2006 02:34:00 PM


    Blogger Tad Thompson said...

    Very interesting questions - I appreciate Dr. Akin. He is a good man

    Saturday, May 27, 2006 4:05:00 PM  
    Blogger Arkansas Razorbaptist said...

    Take note of our clarificaton.

    Saturday, May 27, 2006 4:54:00 PM  
    Blogger Bryan Riley said...

    Got Love v. Got Law. Got Religion v. Got Relationship. Got Christ v. Got Conduct. Got Mediator v. Got Me. Got Clean Living v. Got Christ Living. We can go on...

    Saturday, May 27, 2006 5:17:00 PM  
    Blogger Gabriel Snyder said...

    Dr. Akin is a true man of God, I am glad we have a man like Dr. Akin leading one of our seminaries.

    Saturday, May 27, 2006 6:02:00 PM  
    Anonymous Ron West said...

    You wonder why Dr. Akin brings up the subjects of alcohol consumption, sexually promiscuous movies and profanity but does not give information on where these issues are being raised. I would think this was part of the usual pre-election campaign by leaders of the conservative resurgence to say only their candidate can save the convention from sinking to immorality and heresy, however, he is seems to be talking about our convention at this time which is under conservative resurgence control. I can recall one instance of Baptist Press reporting the use of profanity by a leader of the conservative resurgence. It was also reported by Baptist Press that 4 trustee chairmen who were placed in their positions of trust by the conservative resurgence leaders are no longer in places of leadership because of immoral activity. It is also known that several leaders of the conservative resurgence are active in the Council for National Policy where they work with members of the Coors alcohol industry family as well as other ethically questionable organizations. Could he be pointing out the mistakes of the conservative resurgence? He also reminds us of the poor SBC record on baptisms under conservative resurgence rule. I applaud his courage in bringing these issues up.

    Sunday, May 28, 2006 9:09:00 AM  
    Blogger Arkansas Razorbaptist said...

    I'm not sure that he was talking about conservative leaders...don't knock the CNP, there are great folks involved in that organization, minus some of our Baptist brethern.

    Sunday, May 28, 2006 11:47:00 AM  
    Anonymous Anonymous said...

    Does the consumption of alcohol or having affiliation with alcohol immediately make an individual or an organization ethically questionable?

    Sunday, May 28, 2006 12:19:00 PM  
    Blogger martyduren said...

    (Alchoholics) Anonymous-
    In the SBC it does.

    Use of alchohol equates to being in bed with Bud.

    Monday, May 29, 2006 4:30:00 AM  
    Anonymous Anonymous said...

    Sounds like the SBC has extrabiblical standards then (does Marty Duren speak for the entire org?) and limits its ability to minister to the millions of individuals who choose to participate in partaking of alcoholic beverages. It also makes me wonder why someone who follows Jesus would call him ethically questionable, because even if (we don't know) he didn't partake at the wedding or at his final supper or any other time, he clearly was associated with alcohol. We can discuss (we still don't know) what exactly that wine was, and you can throw in culture (although I think we have a culture today), but, frankly, I am surprised that people feel that a drink (an external neutral action) some how is evidence of internal problems. Perhaps you should add to that list caffeine, use of medicine, etc. Where does it stop? And why does it start in the first place? I realize I will not win this battle here, and don't want to try, but this is one of those rules that, in my opinion (it is just an opinion), Jesus would question like he questioned many of the rules of the religious leaders in that first century. Now, having said that, I wouldn't disagree with a person's decision to abstain at all, because there certainly is wisdom in not partaking. What I find suspect is equating another's decision, for themselves, to partake of alcohol to an ethical lapse, and I would imagine many others feel the same way.

    Monday, May 29, 2006 7:46:00 AM  
    Anonymous Anonymous said...

    Amen, Amen

    Monday, May 29, 2006 7:50:00 AM  
    Anonymous Anonymous said...

    And if you ask yourself, why do they post anonymously? Well, it is because we risk being adjudicated nonbelievers for drinking a beer with our BBQ and pizza... even though we have seen "zillions" of believers do so in our lives (even, God forbid, SBC-ers). And once so identified as ethically questionable, all other statements we make, whether consistent with God's word or not, are suddenly discounted. Hmmm, sounds like something Christ cried out against.

    Monday, May 29, 2006 7:58:00 AM  
    Blogger Gabriel Snyder said...

    Why in the world would you want to be associated with something that has destroyed so many lives. Many people's intentions were just to have some social drinks in the beginning and then this turned into a horrible downward spiral.
    Bro I have seen alcohol destroy lives first hand, and almost destroy mine if it was not for the Grace of God.
    The problem with so many guys that want to argue for alcohol is they are trying see how close they can get to sin and now how far they can get away from sin.

    B/c of His Grace,
    Gabe Snyder

    Monday, May 29, 2006 8:03:00 AM  
    Anonymous Batgirl said...

    Total abistinence is an example of how we have allowed worldly ideas in our theology. Interesting that baptists weren't teetotalers until prohibition.
    I think alcohol is just another one of God's gifts... it can be abused like any other gift. That doesn't make it a sin b/c some choose to abuse it. If that were the case, we'd astain from ALL addictions... including sex.

    Monday, May 29, 2006 8:03:00 AM  
    Blogger Gabriel Snyder said...

    typo on the last post, insert "not" instead of "now" at the very end of the post. thank you

    Monday, May 29, 2006 8:06:00 AM  
    Blogger Arkansas Razorbaptist said...

    Batman would just like to have a beer or two occasionally around the house, but he can't do that right now because of "requirements" at his church that are not based on scripture.

    How is that close to sin?

    Monday, May 29, 2006 8:07:00 AM  
    Blogger Bryan Riley said...

    I can't speak for anonymous, Gabriel, but I think this may be the same argument used to distance ourselves from "sinners," just like the Pharisees of Jesus' day distanced themselves from the sinners and tax collectors. I don't see how you can be about seeking and saving the lost while running from things that may lead to problems down the road. I agree that abstinence is a wise choice for many people, as it has been for you, but I'm not sure we should project that to every indivdiual.

    Batgirl, your posts are great. I'm still new to reading much of this stuff, but now I've seen three posts of yours and like their heart.

    Monday, May 29, 2006 8:08:00 AM  
    Anonymous Batgirl said...

    Gabriel, I'm not scared. God is in control of my life. Let me share with you how my mind was changed on this issue...
    I was a die-hard all drinking is wrong kind of person. I never touched the stuff. Never in high school or college. Then I got married and well, I started questioning my stance on the issue. I began to re-read all those scriptures that I clung to and often recited to others who thought drinking was ok. I prayed long and hard before making any changes in my life, and came to the conclusion that if God was not giving me any conviction on the issue, then it wasn't wrong for me. If God gives you a conviction, its wrong for you. I was 25 and decided an occassional drink was ok. Its not something I do often, but feel absolutely no conviction that it is wrong and I am not blind to anything God is trying to tell me. My mind has been changed on many many things by being open to what God has to tell me... including worship style. I was a die-hard traditionalist too... God changed me... and continues to do so.

    Monday, May 29, 2006 8:36:00 AM  
    Blogger Gabriel Snyder said...

    Bryan why do you have to try and be like someone to reach them?
    I do not believe you are creating distance from someone who is lost because you are not drinking.
    Basically the message that you are sending by saying it is ok to drink is that it is ok to take that risk of becoming an alcoholic. You may think that is extreme and I am not a legalist but that is basically what you are saying though, because their is a chance that you could become an alcoholic just by drinking socially. I have seen this happen a number of times to good people who had no intentions of becoming what they had become.

    Monday, May 29, 2006 8:52:00 AM  
    Blogger Bryan Riley said...

    That actually wasn't the point of my prior comment (to become like someone to win them)... My main point was to say that I felt as though your argument taken to its logical conclusion is the basis for not ever interacting with "sinners," however you define sinners to be. But, to the point you reference, it seems like Paul made that point in 1 Corinthians 9. Clearly you can't win anyone by falling short of God's glory, but you can win them by showing God's love and glory. Each of us must look to the Father and let him examine our hearts as we conduct ourselves and then move ahead, prayerfully for His glory. My story is like Batgirl's, except that I was 30 when God led me to a different conviction. Gabriel, you are very right that many are convicted differently and they should follow that conviction, but that doesn't mean all have that same conviction or that those who have a different conviction should be considered ethically questionable or faith-challenged.

    Monday, May 29, 2006 9:06:00 AM  
    Blogger Gabriel Snyder said...

    Bryan and Batgirl, not to try and insult you but you guys are using the exact argument I used when I was away from the Lord.
    Here is a couple observations of where you both could be coming from. First you guys could be speaking out of complete ignorance on the subject, which this is what seems to be the case because you guys obviously have not experienced what alcohol can do to ones life.
    Second observation which I pray is not the case is that you guys are drinking now and you are beginning to really enjoy drinking. Which because you keep defending the subject could be the case. I have met so many people who tries to justfy drinking just like yourself and eventually their life was turned upside down because of the substance.
    God bless and keep your eyes on Him.

    B/c of His Grace,

    Gabe Snyder

    Monday, May 29, 2006 9:57:00 AM  
    Blogger Bryan Riley said...

    Yes, Amazing Grace...praise God for His grace and but for the grace of God there go I, as a drunkard, a glutton, an adulterer, a murderer, imprisoned, etc. As Batgirl said earlier, "If that were the case, we'd astain from ALL addictions... including sex" (which could lead to all kinds of sins). To which we could add . . . "food (gluttony), going swimming (girls in bathing suits/pornography/fornication), coffee (caffeine, to sleeping meds, to prscription meds), blogging (leading to dissension and gossip and all kinds of sins)" and so on and so on.

    Gabriel, I don't take offense at all to your conviction or even to what conclusions and judgments you have drawn about my choices. I sincerely appreciate your conviction about the subject.

    Matthew 11:19, Luke 7:34, Romans 14, John 2. Add to that Proverbs 20:1 and Ephesians 5:18 and 1 Timothy 3:8 and Titus 2:3.

    Monday, May 29, 2006 10:14:00 AM  
    Anonymous Batgirl said...

    Gabriel, I do not take the slightest bit of offense. And you are wrong on both points. I very much DO know what alcohol can do to someone who abuses it. Very close family members of mine are alcoholics. I grew up watching someone close to me waste their life on drugs and alcohol. But I also know people who were and are addicted to sex. It equally has the potential to ruin one's life. That is when that Christian liberty is taken out of context and abused. Same with alcohol.
    And on the other point... no, due to my involvement with my church, it is not a liberty I take advantage of often at all. I could take it or leave it.

    Monday, May 29, 2006 10:30:00 AM  
    Blogger Benji Ramsaur said...

    Let me say three things before I give my reasons against the absolutely no-alcohol stance.

    1. I grant that drunkeness (notice the word I use because I want to get back to it) is an extremely ugly sin that can horribly affect the lives of others.

    2. I do not drink alcohol at all. Therefore, I should not be accused of trying to make some "excuse" to do what I want to do.

    3. I respect Danny Akin as a man of God and appreciate the focus on preaching he has for Southeastern Seminary.

    Now, here are my reasons against the no alcohol stance.

    1. To even use the word "alcoholic" instead of drunkard is to already get off on the wrong foot because we start viewing people as a "victim" of their biology instead of a lover of sin. While I do not deny that biology can play a part to make some people more predisposed, that still does not get around the truth that the fundamental cause of drinking too much is sin. Otherwise, drunkeness would not be called a sin in the Bible. I think "Alcoholic" comes from naturalistic philosophy, not biblical theology. Alcoholic implies a victim in need of AA. Drunkard implies a sinner in need of grace.

    2. When Jesus commanded people to observe the Lord's supper (which involved wine--even if it did have a low alcoholic content), He knew that plenty of people would struggle with alcohol. Yet, He involved wine in the Lord's Supper anyway. Therefore, the argument that we should not serve wine because there could be people who would stumble from it seems a little shaky.

    3. We should not give an aura to alcohol that it does not deserve. If people get the idea that alcohol is "the forbidden sin" from us, then that can make the temptation all the more attractive. Hence, this can cause more people to become drunks who might not have been otherwise.

    Saturday, June 03, 2006 1:04:00 AM  

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